Creeper Tales #2: Divide by 2 and add 7

Apparently some of the best stories I have are those that come from several years of dancing in a number of cities. Every once in awhile and more often than I'd like, I come across "that guy"... the "creeper"... those he's rarely "the creeper"... he's usually "a creeper," since he's probably not the only one. Every scene has one, and maybe even a half dozen or dozen, depending on the size of the scene. Now, out of respect to these individuals, who probably already have bad enough reputations, I will leave out names, locations, and any other descriptive details not necessary for the telling of the story. Chances are, these stories are not unique to me—or the "creepy leads" involved, so really... it could be anyone, anywhere. I am also titling these "creeper tales," since I have plenty of off-the-dance-floor stories too, especially from my teenage summers working at Kings Island, so maybe those will get told sometime as well.


Creeper Tales #2: Divide by 2 and add 7


There's nothing wrong with a little flirtation in the dance setting... as long as the subject is okay with it. Now, there are all sorts of  discussions to be had about determining whether it's wanted by reading signals, body language, etc... but for this post, I'm addressing the aspect of age and the Standard Creepiness Rule.


For those of you unfamiliar with the Standard Creepiness Rule, the comic below references it:

"Standard Creepiness Rule: Don't date under age divided by 2... plus 7"
Now with harmless flirtation, this can probably be a little more flexible, but not as much as some men would hope. What does this mean for me and my creeper stories? I'll work backwards to find the maximum age of men who have any business flirting with me.


To give the men the best possible scenario, let's pretend I actually look my age. 23 - 7 = 16. 16 x 2 = 32. Though now that I think of it, I was 22 at the oldest when any of my old guy creeper events occurred, so 22 - 7 = 15. 15 x 2 = 30. So technically, according to the Standard Creepiness Rule, it was "creepy" for any guy older than 30 to date me... but flirting may have been permissible for men as old as their mid-30s. Men in their 40s and 50s however... absolutely not. Men in theirs 40s and 50s are old enough to be my father. Ewww. And the following stories involve men at least that old.


To again clarify where I am finding fault/creepiness with the following situations... it's the age thing. Had I been 40... these may have merely been cases of really bad pick-up lines... but since I'm 23 and barely look my age... it's just creepy.


Situation #1
The lead, who was probably in his 40s at the youngest, offered me his arm. I accepted. He said, "You accepted. We are about to begin a 4 minute relationship." I was speechless. He continued, "Unless it's a 10 minute song... then it'll be a 10 minute relationship." At that point, I almost "broke up" with him. Being likely half his age... I was not interested with a relationship with him of any length.
(Fun fact: after hearing other stories about this lead... I didn't have it so bad... but this post is about my creeper tales.)


Situation #2
If you know me well at all... you know I am not fond of mustaches. When a man in his late 40s or so with a large mustache asked me to dance... my mustache-hating instincts told me to decline him, but I decided to be polite and non-judgmental... and accepted. And then he proved my creeper instincts right when he said, "Now don't you take advantage of me." Wow. Now I don't know WHERE he got the idea that I'm in the practice of taking advantage of older men... but I was offended... and grossed out. Even if I was the type to take advantage of older men... Hugh Laurie and George Clooney are the only men who should be worried... definitely not this mustache guy. Again, I was at a loss for words, so I just said, "What does that even mean?" Ironically, this was followed by 4 or 5 minutes of 6th grade dance-type awkwardness... about a foot apart, not even touching, just shifting weight. Awkward. 


Situation #3
This could also be filed under "How not to ask a follow to dance." I was about to exit the room when I felt a light tug on my ponytail. I was inclined to continue my exit, but concerned that there might be more tugging, I turned around, even though I already knew what the question and my answer would be. Again, this involved a man at least old enough to be my father. He asked me to dance. I said, "No thank you." He replied, "What?" Again I said, "No thank you." And then I exited the room. A few minutes later, while I was in the hallway, he came out and said, "Are you mad at me?" Which was strange... since I didn't even know the man. I think we'd danced once. I said, "I didn't appreciate the way you asked me." He replied, "Your back was turned. I thought it'd be cute."  Cute? Really? Tugging on the ponytail of a girl at least twenty years younger than you is CUTE?! Do you go to the playground and tug on the pigtails of the little girls there? It's not cute. It's creepy. I didn't say that to him though. I just said, "Ask me to my face next time." Leads... even if he had been my age... yeah... just, no. Unless you and the girl have that kind of relationship... don't ask with a ponytail tug.


Lessons for leads
If you're bad at math... think of it this way. Would you appreciate a man your age flirting with your daughter or niece? If you're good at math... then when it comes to flirting, consider the Standard Creepiness Rule. Take your age, divide it by 2, then add 7. Now look at the girl. Do you think she's at least that age? Would you put money on it? Or is there a good chance she's younger? Is she young enough you'd worry about her father showing up and kicking your butt? Are you old enough to be her father? Are you George Clooney? You're old enough to be her father and you're not George Clooney? Then... she probably doesn't want your flirtation/awkward pick-up lines. And you don't want the reputation of being the "creepy old guy who hits on the younger girls." (And if you DO want that reputation... I can't help you.)


I'm 23. I don't look it. I don't feel it—I eat cereal with cute cartoon animals on the box, I watch Disney movies, I wear brightly colored mismatched socks AND I still haven't had my first kiss. So when a man old enough to be my father tries to flirt with me, the first thing that comes to mind is "OMG GROSS!" Then I remember I am over 18, so nothing's illegal... but it still makes me uncomfortable. So be friendly, but avoid pick-up lines and references to "relationships" or "taking advantage of" or anything else of the sort... and never, ever, ever tug a stranger's ponytail when asking her to dance. Ever.

Creeper Tales #1: No, that is NOT okay.

Apparently some of the best stories I have are those that come from several years of dancing in a number of cities. Every once in awhile and more often than I'd like, I come across "that guy"... the "creeper"... those he's rarely "the creeper"... he's usually "a creeper," since he's probably not the only one. Every scene has one, and maybe even a half dozen or dozen, depending on the size of the scene. Now, out of respect to these individuals, who probably already have bad enough reputations, I will leave out names, locations, and any other descriptive details not necessary for the telling of the story. Chances are, these stories are not unique to me—or the "creepy leads" involved, so really... it could be anyone, anywhere. I am also titling these "creeper tales," since I have plenty of off-the-dance-floor stories too, especially from my teenage summers working at Kings Island, so maybe those will get told sometime as well.

Creeper Tales #1: No, that is NOT okay.

There are dances you can expect to be uncomfortable... square dancing in 3rd grade when boys are gross and everyone has cooties... your high school prom/homecoming/winter formal... etc. Swing dancing and blues dancing, however, should not be uncomfortable, and should not look anything like your high school prom (or at least my high school prom... ick!). These events are supposed to be fun.

Not to say social dancing isn't awkward, sometimes. Awkward happens. Those first few months when you're not always on beat. That evening when you realize you should've taken it easy at happy hour beforehand. That first lesson when you postulate that you are the first lady your partner has danced with since his sister's wedding... five years ago. Awkward happens. It's a little strange at the time, but we usually get past it and have a great laugh sooner or later.

Uncomfortable, however, is not okay. When you're first introduced to swing/blues dancing, you learn that everyone asks everyone, and you're generally supposed to say yes. For the most part, this works out great. However, sometimes you first yourself trapped into a dance, where you wonder if it's ever okay to say no, or even walk away mid-dance. While dance etiquette typically says yes, you must finish out the song, even if your partner is awkward, I think etiquette can go out the window when it starts to be uncomfortable (as in, inappropriate... that kind of uncomfortable). Here are two incidents, where in hindsight, I think I probably should have walked away mid-song.

Situation #1
I was very new to swing dancing. I knew little of dance etiquette/expectations except that I was supposed to say yes, ask guys, and to dance as much as possible in order to try to get better. With the exception of one salsa lesson the previous school year, swing dancing was my first exposure to social dancing. With one lesson under my belt and very shaky knowledge of the East Coast footwork, I was giving the swing dancing thing a shot.

A man who was at least two decades older than me asked me to dance. I said yes, since I was saying yes to everyone. I probably let him know I was new and not really sure what I was doing yet. The dancing began. He wasn't doing anything that I felt like I knew how to do, which made it rough enough. However, he was also holding me a lot closer that I remembered learning was okay, and in general, the way he was dancing with me made me uncomfortable. It did not feel right. I vocalized several times that I wasn't comfortable with what he was doing; maybe we could just do the East Coast basic? He pretty much ignored my protest, saying I'd figure it out, or something of that nature. At this point, I didn't know what to do. At business camp, in 9th grade, when a boy came behind me and started trying to dance in a way that I didn't like, I said "What THE heck?!" and elbowed him off of me. But this was the grown-up world. Was I allowed to ask him to stop dancing with me and walk away, or did I have to be polite?

I figured I probably had to be polite, so I endured the rest of the song. But I never, ever accepted a dance with that man ever again. At first, I would conveniently "need" water every time I saw him heading my way. But then I learned that it was okay to decline, especially if the lead asking me to dance made me uncomfortable. Now, a little further removed from the incident, I realize that I should've handle the situation like I would anywhere else: "I'm sorry, I'm really not comfortable with this. I'm going to sit the rest of the song out."

Situation #2
This occurred at a blues event in an unfamiliar scene, and at this point I had been dancing for much longer than in "Situation #1."

There are a lot of misconceptions about blues dancing being "dirty." It can be, yes, but activities such as watching a movie or playing poker, can also be dirty, if you and your partner decide that's how you want to do it. I personally like to try to keep my life more or less PG, but to each his own?

Generally, the first time during a dance I feel a lead's hand on my back slip below my belt, I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's an accident. If I'm feeling extra gracious, I may even give him the benefit of the doubt the second time—after all, accidents happen... and sometimes they happen twice. But once we get to instance 6... 7... 10... 15... yeah, probably not an accident anymore.

This lead was on "oops" #7, not very far into the song, and I was beginning to realize I wasn't too fond of how he was trying to dance. I was uncomfortable. I could see myself in the mirror—I looked uncomfortable. He was "dancing" with me, but I was definitely not dancing with him. I was at an unfamiliar event with two rooms of dancing... maybe this is just how they do it here/in this room? I thought. Maybe I shouldn't have even entered this room if I didn't want the hand-to-butt connection made? I endured the rest of the dance. Yeah, again I was trying to be polite, but I thought also, maybe it was my fault.

But no, apparently that was NOT how they did it there. As I was fleeing that room, a woman approached me. "Can I ask you some questions about the dance you just had?" she asked. Not sure exactly where this was going, I answered "Sure."

"Were you comfortable with the dance you just had?" she asked. At that point, I figured out she was one of the organizers of the event.

"No," I answered.

"Okay. That's all I needed to know," she replied. As I walked away, I saw her approach the lead with whom I had just endured a song, presumably to give him a little talking-to about appropriate dance behavior. I was glad someone was looking out for me, but realized I shouldn't have let it get that far. By "oops" #4 or so, I should have walked away. I talked to a few of the more experienced follows at the event, who confirmed that no, that was not how they did it there, and yes, that guy was a creep. I avoided him for the rest of the night, though I'm sure after his conversation with the organizer... he was not about to approach me again.

Lessons learned
1. Follows... know what's acceptable in the social dance environment. If you don't remember learning about hand-to-butt being a connection point in any of the lessons you've taken... it's probably not. If it makes you really uncomfortable/violated... then it's definitely not okay. You agreed to dance with the guy for one song, not to let him do whatever he wants with you for one song. Go with your instincts and walk away. Try your best to come up with a classy, mature way to do it (whatever fits the particular situation), but if all else fails, do what I did when the obnoxious drunk French guy was trying to dance with me at Radegast on New Year's Eve... say "Oh my gosh. I REALLY have to pee."... and bolt.
(Edit: If you are comfortable speaking up and correcting the lead, try this first. Politely let him know what you are comfortable with and not comfortable with. If he ignores/brushes you off like the lead in situation #1... not okay. Again, this applies to when it's not an accident or unintentional.)
(Note that ditching is only okay when it's truly uncomfortable and the guy has clearly crossed the line. If it's merely awkward, sorry ladies, but show a little grace and stick it out for the remainder of the song. It's up to you whether or not you want to decline future requests by the lead, but for the song, be as polite as you can.)
2. Leads... accidents happen. There's a chance she might not have noticed, but if you noticed, she probably noticed. Apologize, so that there's no question in her mind about whether or not you were trying to make a move on her. Also, pay attention to your follow (good general advice). If she looks/feels uncomfortable for any reason, try to alleviate it... whether it's the uncomfortable discussed in the blog post, or if she just looks really nervous about being swung out into the nearby column. Dancing is supposed to be fun. Don't make your follow feel uncomfortable. [Semi-related... don't torture your follow just because you're the lead and she "has to" follow what you're leading (i.e. spinning the girl 16 times in a row, etc.). It's not very nice.]
3. Organizers... follow the example of the woman at the blues event and keep an eye on what's going on at your event, if you can. I kept going out dancing, despite an uncomfortable situation one of my first times out, but other ladies might be deterred and get the wrong idea about the event. I think conduct so inappropriate it requires an intervention is rare, but it does happen every once in awhile. Keep an eye out.


A few final thoughts...
For my non-dancing friends... don't be scared away from dancing! In about three years of social dance experience, I was only able to come up with two situations where what the lead was doing was really not okay or acceptable at all. This doesn't happen all that often, but it does happen.

Again, yes, once you agree to a dance, you should really be polite and finish the song. The lead smells awful? Stick it out... and hope for lots of turns and swing outs to breathe on. He's soaked in sweat? Keep your mouth closed... and stick it out. Nothing at all is going right during the dance? Stick it out. But just know that social dancing etiquette does not give men a "free pass" for being inappropriate. That's a major, major epic dance foul.